The Gaming Den

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Another victory for `good censorship'!

They've also banned some well-known anti-Scientology users from editing Scientology articles, so they're trying to be somewhat even-handed.

A good encyclopedia has facts, sometimes those facts are simply against someone. Being even handed is a bad thing.

Draco_Argentum wrote:A good encyclopedia has facts, sometimes those facts are simply against someone. Being even handed is a bad thing.

"We are not insulting you. We are describing you."

Look, sometimes the naked truth about someone or some culture is insulting. For example, if I made an article about how the Catholic church excommunicated a girl but not her rapist about getting a life-saving abortion, it would make them look like complete shitheads and would have its own set of insults associated with it.

But it still deserves to be noted, because it's true. If someone notes that Scientology brainwashes people, infilitrates the government for favorable treatment, and commits massive amounts of fraud they shouldn't be able to whitewash it because their feelings get hurt. If a neutral POV requires downplaying or overlooking this shit then it's not actually a neutral POV, it's a biased point of view that favors the rapist cheerleaders and liars.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Look, sometimes the naked truth about someone or some culture is insulting. For example, if I made an article about how the Catholic church excommunicated a girl but not her rapist about getting a life-saving abortion, it would make them look like complete shitheads and would have its own set of insults associated with it.

But it still deserves to be noted, because it's true. If someone notes that Scientology brainwashes people, infilitrates the government for favorable treatment, and commits massive amounts of fraud they shouldn't be able to whitewash it because their feelings get hurt. If a neutral POV requires downplaying or overlooking this shit then it's not actually a neutral POV, it's a biased point of view that favors the rapist cheerleaders and liars.

Hm? Was that at me?

I should have provided some context. I typed that while imagining someone saying that line to the Scientologists. Or any person/group who has done objectively bad things.

I remember a while back someone linking to a thread in which a mod claiming that members can't insult someone. Even if what you said about someone is true, if it's bad, it's insulting and you shouldn't say it.

Which, I think, also falls into the "I'm describing, not insulting" category.

Oh, I thought that your comment was being facetious.

My bus, my bad.

Anyway, Wikipedia has some problems it needs to fix. It seems like a mod can do anything he or she wants, and be as big a jerk as he can, and nothing will happen to him.

I made the mistake of checking the discussion page for a town a friend moved to (it's been a year and more, but I realized I don't know jack about the place). Apparently, someone had put it a bunch of civic information but it had been taken down for not being sourced. The person pleaded their case and said all the information was taken from this town's library.

And the mod said, "Great! Then you'll have no trouble going back and getting the credit information!"

edit: I can see the need for appropriate citation of sources, but I've seen too many Wikipedia moderators do things like save all the insulting messages people give them for deleting scores of files, or declare that there's no evidence they'll accept for a subject being notable, because it isn't notable, so any evidence cannot be relevant or convincing. QED.

Edit-Edit: Jeeze. I just realized yet again. We have it awesome here. FBMF has a definite live-and-let-live policy on most things. Other places have moderator-designers who try to be active and then can't stop themselves when they see something or someone they don't like. Thank you, FBMF.

Draco_Argentum wrote:A good encyclopedia has facts, sometimes those facts are simply against someone. Being even handed is a bad thing.

True, and I agree that Scientology, by any objective examination, has the facts against them. On the other hand, even on the correct side of any issue, there are people who act on vendettas rather than facts. Keeping those people out lends more credibility to the people who just stick to the unflattering facts.

Maxus wrote:Anyway, Wikipedia has some problems it needs to fix. It seems like a mod can do anything he or she wants, and be as big a jerk as he can, and nothing will happen to him.

Yes. The best way to deal with this is to abuse it, of course. (about 2/3 down the page is a section on becoming an admin).

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/01/ark ... .shooting/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31029377/

What the hell is this place coming to?

The recruiters are only promoted out of their hell-hole positions if they lie and cheat people into the military. So they're not entirely innocent.

However, they should be locked up in military brigs, not shot.

-Crissa

PS: Fifteen counts? Three legal weapons? The recruiters weren't actually hit, just recruits? Weeeeird.

At least they got the creep who killed the hero doctor. At least, I hope they got the right creep. He's certainly a creep (see his storied past) whether or not he's the right one in this case.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31029377/

What the hell is this place coming to?

This gets soooo much fucking better. Look at this quote:

"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."

One of the people who helps run Operation Rescue was convinced and served time for planning a bombing at an abortion clinic. Yes, they have abortion bombers for staff, yet they are "totally peaceful".

It gets better. The guy they caught? A news report (one that may be untrue, don't crucify me, yada yada, at work so no cite, maybe later) had that person, who I mentioned above's, phone number in the car when he was caught. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

Also, notice how they want him "brought to justice", and denounce "vigilantism". OR has had this guy in court several times over false charges that he's performed abortions for illegal reasons. Every time, the guy has been found innocent in a very, very short amount of time (less then 1 hour in the latest case). All the abortions he performs that people hate him for? They're only legally performable if the woman's life is threatened by the pregnancy. Essentially, he was harassed, threatened, his place vandalized, and he was ultimately killed for saving lives.

What is this world coming to? Well, we're a Christian nation, apparently.

Oh, hey. Black man shooting up a recruiting station in Little Rock. There's a political statement in there somewhere.

Edit: Wait, might the above seem racist? What I meant was that a member of the traditional discriminatees attacks an organisation that exists to lie to them, and people like them, and it occured in Little Rock, which has a small amount of fame with regards to racial issues. It'd be kind of fitting if this got blown up into a big political statement.

I am not sure how to to interpret the above posts. I linked these items because I don't really want to see the US devolve into the Hatfields and the McCoys where any time someone disagrees with some person's viewpoint the answer is to fucking kill them. There is no justification for these attacks.

It doesn't matter if you are Left, Right, Black, White, Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. It just isn't acceptable. Nothing either of the victims did warrants death (or even imprisonment). Even if it did, it is not the right or responsibility of some self-anointed holy warrior to pass judgment and carry out the sentence.

Keep going along those lines and you end up with the Middle East.

It's a note of resignment to the fact that people don't really seem willing to permit people to do things for no reason. Someone's going to turn a recruiting office shooting into some statement on how the US government is failing it's non-WASP citizens, as indicated by the fact that a black guy shot up an arm of the government in the city famous for it's role in desegregation.

People are not going to let it go at him being angry, or something mundane. He's a modern segregation Che, or something. I have no clue.

Heath Robinson wrote:It's a note of resignment to the fact that people don't really seem willing to permit people to do things for no reason. Someone's going to turn a recruiting office shooting into some statement on how the US government is failing it's non-WASP citizens, as indicated by the fact that a black guy shot up an arm of the government in the city famous for it's role in desegregation.

People are not going to let it go at him being angry, or something mundane. He's a modern segregation Che, or something. I have no clue.

I don't know. It just seems lazy to me to answer 'why did he start shooting up that church full of Unitarians' with 'because he was crazy and had guns'. Well, duh, that's nice and pat, but how does that answer help us prevent more shootings?

Well, they arrested the guy shooting at Unitarians, he's in jail.

Also, a long article on Oprah's quackery, though I wish it'd focus more on the negative effects on our society.

-Crissa

I am not sure how to to interpret the above posts. I linked these items because I don't really want to see the US devolve into the Hatfields and the McCoys where any time someone disagrees with some person's viewpoint the answer is to fucking kill them. There is no justification for these attacks.

I hope my post isn't included in this, although I can understand if it is. I in no way endorse shooting doctors or Christians. Indeed, if it wasn't clear, I'm on the side of the doctor here. And while I'm not going to go around shooting people, my post was more meant of a holy fuck these guys are nutjobs I'm surprised they aren't shooting people MORE OFTEN kind of thing.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I don't know. It just seems lazy to me to answer 'why did he start shooting up that church full of Unitarians' with 'because he was crazy and had guns'. Well, duh, that's nice and pat, but how does that answer help us prevent more shootings?

Yes, but turning him into modern desegregation Che before we know why he did it is a depressingly believable prospect. By "for no reason" I meant "for a mundane, trivial reason". Maybe he did it because the military turned him down. Maybe he thinks they make too much noise. Maybe he just picked a target at random to vent his frustration at.

Nobody knows, but people are going to read so much into this whole thing. Wasting time, money, energy, lives pursuing a course of action because the uninformed have been misled about the reasons behind why the guy did things and refuse to accept the reality is worse than not knowing what we can do to stop more shootings. At least when we have no idea, we know that we have no idea. People persuade themselves that they're right when they think they know things.

Well, they arrested the guy shooting at Unitarians, he's in jail.

Actually, they were Lutherans. But yeah, it was a remarkably quick job of capturing a fleeing perp.

Religious extremists kill people. Like, a lot. They kill people every day. In the United States. We have more religious extremists than Europe and have more than twice the murder rate of the UK. These facts are not unrelated.

Get rid of religious extremists and murder won't go away - but more than half the problem will. The population of Atheists and Agnostics is proportionately many times higher outside prison than it is inside prison.

-Username17

Uhh, no, Unitarians.

-Crissa

FrankTrollman wrote:Religious extremists kill people. Like, a lot. They kill people every day. In the United States. We have more religious extremists than Europe and have more than twice the murder rate of the UK. These facts are not unrelated.

I am not sure religious extremism is at the heart of the higher murder rate in the US. It might be, but I am not sure. My understanding is that the vast number of murders are of the black on black variety and are not centered around religious extremism but on poverty, ignorance and the lucrative drug trade.

Get rid of religious extremists and murder won't go away - but more than half the problem will

Are you claiming that half of the murders in the US are committed by people with extreme religious views or are you implying that those with extreme religious views tend to be conservative and conservatives are at the heart of every evil and injustice in the country, which spawns murderers with its unfair social system?

The population of Atheists and Agnostics is proportionately many times higher outside prison than it is inside prison

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc

LL wrote:I am not sure religious extremism is at the heart of the higher murder rate in the US. It might be, but I am not sure. My understanding is that the vast number of murders are of the black on black variety and are not centered around religious extremism but on poverty, ignorance and the lucrative drug trade.

The majority of the murders are committed by White People. Of course, the vast majority of the people are White People. The racist argument is that Blacks commit more than their share of murders by population demographics alone (which is true if you spin the stats the right way). To say that Blacks commit a majority of the murders is just grossly irresponsible. If you're going to get stats from the KKK, at least get their actual statistics.

Black People make up nearly half the murder victims. That's appalling, considering that Black people make up less than 14% of the total population. But it's incredibly disingenuous to call that a majority of anything.

LL wrote:Are you claiming that half of the murders in the US are committed by people with extreme religious views or are you implying that those with extreme religious views tend to be conservative and conservatives are at the heart of every evil and injustice in the country, which spawns murderers with its unfair social system?

It can be two things. Seriously, today there were rallies all over the world to show their support for Dr. Tiller's murderer. There was a group of them outside the genetics department holding up signs threatening that it would be us next if we failed to repent and find Jesus.

That is the reality of religion. That and this.

-Username17